|
The constant on going battle to search
for ultimate truth persists within the very soul of humanity. For
some it is an endless quest, an adventure to seek self satisfaction,
substance, logic in a puzzle of illogical consequences. In the arts
two specific factors are more apparent than any others, the first is
obvious: perfection, a goal that persists. We never attain it but
chase it regardless. The other is underlying truth, the veritable
whys and wherefores that allow us to reason. We look for a more
pertinent answer, a solution to a problem, answers to questions.
solutions can satisfy our souls, give us 'cause', but the finalized
personal solution could also enlighten a fellow traveler of the same
quest. We can feed off one another to seek a 'reality', the ultimate
truth, though truth is an individual as opinion itself. The results
of our life's work can be kept personal to us or be shared by an
attentive studious martial arts public.
My subject for this
insight is none other than the mufti-talented Willy Lim, 7th dan. A
man of observed, even attentive foresight who questioned until he
discovered real solutions to real dilemmas. The man's life is a
veritable trial against ordeal in order to find reality. Ladies and
gentlemen of standing, I give you Master Willy Lim, a man before his
time, a man of reality a man of the classical dimension.
John Dawson: How
many years have you been involved In the martial arts, and what was
your first style?
I have been
involved in the martial arts since 1961. It was actually my dad to
be honest who pushed me into the martial arts. The first style I did
was Kyokushinkal Karate. For an Asian I'm quite big, and it seemed I
was getting injuries all the time. That’s when I branched into Tai
Chi because the teacher was an herbalist. I went to him for all the
herbal treatment and then became his student. In 1963 I started Tae
Kwon Do with Choi Chang Kim.
John Dawson: Did
you ever meet Mas Oyama of Kyokushinkai Karate?
No, I have not met
him at all, but we have corresponded for a long time.
John Dawson: Was
Choi Chang Kim Instrumental in your martial arts development?
He was instrumental
in giving me a good solid basis on which to build.
John Dawson:
Being a Korean exponent, how do you view other systems?
When I was teaching
in New Zealand
I was the pioneer for all the martial arts families,
so I had people
like Benny the Jet, Bill Wallace, etc. I brought in all of them.
Everyone has
something to offer,
it's all part of development, so at the end of the day you put two
and two together and that's how we develop, rather than following
blindly.
John Dawson:
Drawing on your own experiences, have traditional martial arts
underlying strengths? How ‘deep’ do you think traditional systems
really go?
TKD, as you and I
learn it, John, is an option of shotokan karate and is watered down
from when the Okinawa passed it on to the Japanese: they never
passed on the real art. Most Japanese instructors don't like to hear
this. But when you have been involved in the art thirty-five years,
you place it realistically. People ask what my base is. My base is
TKD. I haven't gone away from that, I just have a better
understanding of what I am doing. If I am to relate to that then a
lot of what we do is still elementary. It works like a 'crowbar
principle' - use it and it'll get you in the house, but why not have
a key to open the door? That's what I am trying to do. It is hard
because you are trying to go against the establishment, but unless
you are prepared to stick your neck out you don’t see the real side
of the art.
John Dawson: Do
you still see that as a hard thing to do even in these modem times?
Yes, because it is
going against structured martial arts. It's so steeped in tradition
we don't question things, it's handed down - this is tradition, this
is what they do in
Japan,
this is what they do in Korea.
John Dawson: So
we have` been learning face value techniques?
We were sold a
package and that package came to you. As we got better and better
that package became more refined, with more power. It is still the
same package, nothing has changed.
John Dawson: So
do you feel that those Japanese and Korean people bringing martial
arts to the western world did this knowingly or unknowingly?
Unknowingly,
because even after I saw this for the first time I hunted around for
the right art. The right art is not known, it is one of those
things, if you happen to meet an instructor that knows someone, or
you are keen enough to search around for it, you will see something
different. Then again, one art it is not everyone's cup of tea, so
it is up to the individual. What is truth to me may not be truth to
you.
John Dawson: Is
Dillman's approach similar to yours?
Different. I did an
earlier interview and they asked me if I trained with Dillman. I
said yes, I was responsible for all these seminars in New Zealand,
even the early ones in California. I was the organizer: Now, because
I am presently outside the group, some brand me the rebel. What
Dillman teaches is a lot of crucial techniques, that's a very
Important part of the art, but what you and I do, block, kick and
punch, I would term A, B and C, not art. If you are really good at
it - I say it because no one stands there and lets you hit them -
you are good at it and you use it, then I call this letter Z. What
about all-the letters inbetween? So that is what I am pursuing;
ending with a whole alphabet of techniques. It is up to the
individual to specialize or develop what he wants to use, and we are
all different, that's how I would put it.
John Dawson: Do you
find it hard to communicate these underlying strengths? For example,
the development of poomse, you turn to the left, to a multitude of
attackers, and low block, then turn 180 degrees, which is
traditional. But it is different, now things have advanced a bit,
the pioneers like yourself have helped us see the light. I remember
reading about Dillman years ago and I saw his video and thought,
well this is a knowledgeable guy, but without sounding rude to him
he seemed very 'packaged'. The way things are packaged. Maybe it's
my skepticism.
In anything we do I
think you have to have honesty, including martial arts. You still
have honesty and integrity, you have to market their use. That's not
the game I am in, or I could earn better money elsewhere. It's hard,
how do you tell someone who has been doing traditional martial arts
for twenty years, that's okay but let me show you a better idea, if
it works take it on board. That's what most people are not prepared
to do. For years their ego couldn't handle it. A very important part
of the art is self development, that is what the martial atrs are
about if you are not prepared for that then you will always be a
beginner in my book.
John Dawson: Do
you find it hard to communicate these underlying strengths? For
example, the development of poomse, you turn to the left, to a
multitude of attackers, and low block, then turn 180 degrees, which
is traditional. But it is different now things have advanced a bit,
the pioneers like yourself have helped us see the light. I remember
reading about Dillman years ago and I saw his video and thought,
well this is a knowledgeable guy, but without sounding rude to him
he seemed very 'packaged'. The way thing are packaged. Maybe it's my
skepticism.
In anything we do I
think you have to have honesty, including martial arts. You still
have honesty and integrity; you have to market their use. That's not
the game I am in, or I could earn better money elsewhere. It's hard,
how do you tell someone who has been doing traditional martial arts
for twenty years, that's okay but let me show you a better idea, if
it works take it on board. That's what most people are not prepared
to do. For years their ego couldn't handle it. A very important part
of the art is self development, that is what the martial arts are
about. If you are not prepared for that then you will always be a
beginner in my book.
John Dawson: If someone wants to go on one of your courses what
would they learn from you?
I would show you a
deep rendition of the forms. I could take for example one of the
forms. I could take for example one of your forms, paterns etc. and
say ten different meanings of that form; the next time I came round,
I could repeat your form and give you a different interpretation. So
what this is telling you is that you shouldn’t see everything
through tunnel vision, and that’s what the martial arts is
developing.
John Dawson: Do you think the Dillman approach to things has
sensationalized things a bit much?
Dillman is very
good at what he is doing, make no mistake about that. In my personal
opinion, I would not be here if not for what he showed me, but I
went on from there to learn from someone who taught him: Oyada. He’s
the person from whom I originated. Like anything, we see the
knockout, we sit back, we re-analyze and put it in its real
perspective, then and only then will it prove us a martial artist.
There are no ‘pop a pill’ and have a go knock-out techniques, even I
know that.
John Dawson: Don’t you think the American market is saying watch
this video and you’ll be able to knock a person out with one punch,
there’s no academical background?
That's what a lot
of them believe. Like anything you still have to go through the
years of training, and that’s my own honest opinion.
John Dawson: If you could change anything about the structure of the
martial arts, maybe the technicalities or the philosophies, or the
way they are taught, what would it be?
If I could change,
say, the syllabus and help those who want something different, then
I would put what I am doing or what Dillman is doing, into it,
perhaps at a level of black belt instructors. That's where it should
be, so if you reach black belt level, you then take it to a
different stage, and as you progress we take it to a higher level,
so always there is something else. We are aiming to reach that black
belt level, two years later we are still doing the same thing,
that's where all our blackbelts drop out because there's no syllabus
for them.
John Dawson: How do you view sport martial arts?
There is room for
sport martial arts, we all come through that avenue. It caters also
for the young ones. It is where we make our money. As more old
people are Involved in the art then we have to keep the self defense
part of it with the sport.
John Dawson: Do you not feel that sport combat confines technical
ability by a set of rules?
Yes, this is true,
but it is a sport as I mentioned. Firstly, it is restricted to young
people, where does it leave room for the elderly people or those who
are not athletically inclined, so that's a big drawback I think. As
a martial arts instructor you are going to get people who are very
sport inclined, you have to cater for them. Then you are going to
have people who only want self defense, you start them off with the
same basic techniques. One of your previous questions asked if they
would become self defense inclined, there has to be a balance.
John Dawson: Who has been most instrumental In your martial arts
career so far?
There have been
different people who have helped me through the years. When I was at
a burnt out stage with Taekwondo, I met Prof. Wally Jay, we were
already friends and he suggested Dillman who gave me a big boost. It
was like a fairytale story, you see something and, wow, again you
sit down and re-analyze things. When I shifted to
America
I saw an opportunity to train with Oyada. I, think he was
instrumental in me looking for answers myself more than anything.
But In fairness to everyone no-one gives you all the answers - the
search must come from you alone.
John Dawson: What in particular did Oyada point out, to you?
He didn't point out
or say anything in so many words. There is more to it than blocking
and punching, I watched him, he is maybe about five-feet and he
could hit someone six-feet tall, and that person couldn't touch him.
I mean by hand techniques, not leg techniques. So from that I
laughed and said, I have been teaching martial arts why didn't I see
that? I didn't know any better, does anyone until someone opens the
door and shines the light on your head? I would say he was
instrumental in a lot of things for me, and I have in turn gone back
to the Tai Chi people who are now opening up to me for what I am and
where I have progressed.
John Dawson: So would you say that basically instructors don’t
potentially realize what they are learning or have at their
disposal?
Without a doubt the
martial arts, if we’re honest about it, are about opening our eyes
to see they are about progressing. It doesn’t matter where you learn
as long as you can progress; if you are a TKD instructor then what
you learned you take to a higher level of the system. We have to
have that approach, it is with that honest approach that we prove
tha whole of the martial arts is very important.
John Dawson: Are ther any plans for a book or promo videos on your
career?
I have promo videos
back home in the USA, hopefully I will get some done over here and
put pen to paper and get some books out, then some people could read
the text and have a guide.
John Dawson:
It’s a pity that TV doesn’t pick up on things, but they have a very
blinkered view in journalism about martial arts. In Britain we often
see headlines like “Karate Man Chops his way to success’ etc, we
don’t need it.
You want to get in
tht the martial arts is a thinking man’s art, it has to be otherwise
we go back to the ‘crowbar principal’. We have to look closely at at
everything.
John Dawson: What are your main ambitions now, Master Lim?
My idea is to
introduce this to more people and perhaps to help them in their own
way to find their own paths. If that is done then my job is done.
Now I only teach Tai Chi most of the time, and I teach only private
classes in the States, it's not on a commercial scale.
John Dawson: Who would you have most liked to have met in your
martial arts career?
I would like to
meet the head of Tai Chi, Chen Man Ching. I would have liked to have
seen what a real art is about because again whilst it's not directly
related to TKD it's the same, we are doing the same thing all over
again. Tai Chi has been accepted as real Tai Chi, that is the
hardest part to swallow.
John Dawson: What was the greatest accolade ever awarded to you?
I wouldn't say it
was awarded to me, but I would say at the world championships in
1978 when General Choi came to introduce me to all the elite
instructors. He got them to stand up and shake my hand because of
what I stood for. I told him that I didn't bow to a Korean, because
he is Korean. If he is honest then its a mutual bond, as you
understand there is a lot of friction between Korean instructors and
non-Korean instructors, right from the early days. I competed with
them and did it most successfully. When it became my turn to meet
them, he got all of them to stand up, rather than sit, and shake my
hand and that meant a lot to me. It's what you stand for inside,
John Dawson: How do you view the way modern martial artists are
taught, are we getting originality or a dilution of TKD?
From my
perspective, we are getting a dilution. But like anything we are
geared towards promoting this in the Olympic or sports aspects, so
if I am coming from that perspective, if I was teaching today I
would still be going along that route you're going because that's
where we are all headed. People like you who want something
different, like a different syllabus for black belts, then we are
looking into the same classical aspect of TKD.
John Dawson: All we are really doing is reverting TKD back to its
original status. Modem times have put in modem thinking and spoiled
everything.
I believe that if I
talk about judo being introduced into the Olympics it's still
considered by some people a martial art, but once it goes in to the
Olympics it's gone. The martial arts needs a bonding traditional
side.
John Dawson: Have you ever had a competitive career?
No not really. The
only time I ever competed was in the University Games in New
Zealand. We were the first TKD team to ever take part, and won a lot
of trophies. We were the first TKD team to compete in karate
circles.
John Dawson: How do you view winning?
Winning is part of
our development, so is losing. Like anything, if you are not feared
for this, especially if you are on the losing end, I doesn’t do the
ego good.
John Dawson: What would you most like to be remembered for?
I would like to be
remembered for sharing my ideas and what I believe the old art to
be, what I believe the integrity of the art is about.
John Dawson: If anyone was Interested In your martial arts,
concepts, how could they get in touch or get any info about you?
They could either
get in touch with Mick Mulvaney up north or you, as you are now in
contact with me. I have people around the
Nottingham area who come over to the States and train with me in Wado
Ryu who are in this line of work as well.
John Dawson:
Anything you would like to add?
I believe TKD, ITF
and WTF or whatever organization you belong to, develop to a high
degree in the sport in the UK. A high enough standard I think for
all the Instructors to sit down and say, where are we going? We have
brought our people to the highest level and new ones will come in
and if we teach them through improvement we'll get a higher level of
sport prospective in the arts. Sit down and revamp for the black
belts - only then will you have developed martial artists.
John Dawson: It's been very informative, thank you, Master Lim.
No, thank you,
John. |
